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Target Stabilizer Question


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#1 Hatchet Jack

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 08:14 PM

I have finally made the purchase - bought a CIII on AT. It's bare bow. I have the Mathews drop-away rest from my SB (replaced it with a WB for hunting - no regrets). I'm thinking one fall away rest is pretty much like another, but have no clue on stabilizers.

I'm looking at the IBO Hunter Release Class, to open up options on stabilization. But, there are so many options and types. What exactly should I be looking for in a stabilizer? How do you determine length? V-bars and balancers? Any recommendations on maybe a systematic approach to this problem? Looks like the setup will be a CJ sight (maybe the new one) with third axis, Mathews fall away rest on a Mathews Conquest III, mini-max cam system.

When I get it all set up I'll post pics.

Also - considering a back tention release - any recommendations there? My neighbor bought one of those "chocolate" releases and proceeded to punch himself in the mouth :clap: :ok:
"The Lord bless and keep you. The Lord make His face shine upon you and be gracious to you. The Lord turn His face toward you and give you peace." Num 6:24-26

#2 Jeremiah

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 11:52 PM

You are setting out on... well... an expensive path, if nothing else. Soon, you too will realize that which all target archers have learned; There is no way to tell exactly what gear is going to work without trial & error. I sincerely hope that you have a quality local shop or club filled with people eager to help and let you try their goodies before you buy. If not, you're truly just winging it when you're new.

Now that I have been brutally honest, I'll attempt to share what little I know on the subject in an attempt to help you cut a few corners, if nothing else.

First, the gear you buy will be largely determined by the class you will shoot. You say you are looking at MBR. Well, here's what it says (as if you haven't already read it).

BOWHUNTER RELEASE (MBR)
A compound, recurve, or longbow shot with no restriction on stabilizers or style of release. A sight shall have fixed pin, cross hair, or circle style pins without a lens or magnification. If circle style pins are used, all circles must be the same size. Sights may not be adjusted after entering the shooting course. Note rule change page 5, C-6, concerning peep sights. MBR archers will shoot from the green stake.

So, basically, you have a little sight and peep issue and everything else is wide open. Most I know are shooting something along the lines of a Copper John Pro III or Spot-Hogg Hogg-It. No single (or multiple) pin adjustable "slide sights" are allowed for MBR. So, you're already there. Since you can not run a scope lens, basically any peep will do as well (no clarifier/verifier needed).

So, on the subject of stabilization.

Extremely generically speaking, a rigid, light and long stabilizer with weight out on the very tip farthest from the bow will reduce a bows ability to turn, torque or move when held at full draw. (Read up on "moment of inertia" if you are really inclined to know why.) For indoor shooting, I, personally, run a 30" carbon rod stabilizer with 3 - 1.5 ounce stack weights on the end. This combination came about for two reasons. Number one, I found that for me and my bow a stabilizer 26" or longer made the biggest difference in how hard it was to move the bow at full draw. Ultimately, the 30" length was decided on because, frankly, it was the length that I could comfortably rest the tip of the stabilizer on my shoe while keeping a relaxed hand on the bow grip to rest between shots. The amount of weight used on the end was trial and error. I just happened to find the best stabilization for me with close to 5 ounces in weight. Now, since you will mostly be shooting outdoors the thought process there is a little different. Most shooters will sacrifice some stability for a more nimble bow. There is no telling what you may run into on a 3D course and there may be times when a 30" stabilizer is just in the way. Even wind catching the side of such a large stabilizer can make it nearly impossible to hold steady without torquing the bow. So, it seems most folks are running something in the 24" range at the longest.

As to V-bars and offsets, they are used primarily to balance the bow, but also to add mass weight for those looking for a certain mass weight to holding draw weight ratio. (Some serious archers have found that they get their best performance when they strike a certain balance between the holding draw weight of their bow and the actual mass weight of the bow itself... Another topic entirely.) You're main concern is the weight of your sight, and to some extent your arrow rest, on the right side of the bow (for right handed shooters). Those items will tend to make the bow cant to the right at full draw. Enter the offset bar. An offset bar is basically a single-sided V-bar or "kicker" designed to counter the excess weight of your sight and rest. (So, on a right handed bow the offset bar will be on the left side.) It seems most 3D shooters opt for the offset bar. (Again in keeping with a more "basic" approach to stabilization and a more nimble outfit.) V-bars, as their name implies, split out to both sides of the bow and allow for weights to be added to both ends/sides of the bow. This allows a person to add a good amount of weight to the bow as close the handle as possible for balance (pretty handy if you have a lot of weight on the end of your stabilizer) and still add a little more to the left side (for right handed shooters) to counter the sight/rest weight on the right side of the bow. So, how do you know how much weight to add? Personally, I take my bow with everything on it and hang it by the top cam or wheel from a string. (Heavy monofilament fishing line works well as it's slippery and won't catch or bind on the bow giving you a false reading.) I will then add stack weights to the end(s) of the V-bar or single offset bar until the bow is no longer canting/leaning to the right side when viewed from behind. (You can run a plumb line down the string to get it exact if you wish.) All told, you should end up with a bow that balances so well at full draw that the sight level rarely budges.

If you're still a bit puzzled, look around for inspiration. Here's a typical Burley Hall 3D set-up...

Posted Image

Notice the "short" stabilizer. He's also running a V-bar with a pretty radical downward angle. (Getting the weighted ends as low on the bow as he can to help with canting/balance.)

The end result of your stabilization efforts should be a well balanced bow that holds a lot more steadily on target than it did before you began. Ultimately, tinkering around with lengths and weights are the only way to find maximum steadiness. As for what products to look for, I personally shoot Easton A/C/E stabilizers. They work well and they are relatively affordable. Cartel may be cheaper, but they're made in Korea if that matters to you. Doinker... Well, Doinker makes awesome stuff. But, you will likely spend as much for a stabilizer/V-bar set as you just spent for the used Conquest 3.

Have fun spending & playing! :D

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#3 Hatchet Jack

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 06:31 AM

That is a very honest and straight-forward explanation. I understand the need for weight on the bow and now it's obvious to me why an offset - duh - should have noticed that. Figured the weight on the end of the stabilizer was moment-of-inertia driven. Bad news is it's trial and error. Guess I'll just pick a length and rod that will allow me to add and take away weights. For this season I'll just live with the length as long as I can adjust the weights where it feels right.

Thanks Jer - you are the archery MAN!
"The Lord bless and keep you. The Lord make His face shine upon you and be gracious to you. The Lord turn His face toward you and give you peace." Num 6:24-26

#4 Jeremiah

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 03:34 PM

There is one possible solution to the stabilizer length issue and it comes from one of my favorite companies, Specialty Archery. Their high-end Super Stix (Elite Stix) models come with, or can be outfitted with, a "tuner rod". This rod is basically a sliding rod out on the end of the stabilizer that allows you to vary the length of the stab. as well as fine tune the weight placement. I don't shoot this stab. only 'cause I think it's "ugly". (I know... stupid reason. But, it's a little bit of a "fashion show" to me. :D ) The other thing that is cool about the Super Stix though is that they offer a smaller profile to the wind I was talking about before for 3D thanks to being made of 3 or 4 thin carbon rods instead of one large rod. (I hunt with a 12" S.S. Ultra Lite and my scope/peep are also from Specialty... Good company.)

Their website is a bit of a mess. (I've seen n00b webpages with better navigation, to be frank.) But, here is the link anyway. http://www.specialtyarch.com/stabilizer.htm
If you manage to find your way around to the home page they also have a link to their online store so you can get a feel for pricing.

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#5 Jeremiah

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 03:36 PM

Thanks Jer - you are the archery MAN!

If only I could shoot half as well as I learn I would be dangerous. :D

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#6 TerryfromAR

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 05:26 PM

JJ I've shot a few tourney's outdoors, and what Jere said about not knowing what kind of stuff you'll have to go through is true, i've been out to shoots that one minute you're on a nice platform taking a 20 yd broadside shot on an elk target , and the next shot, you're shooting 40yds across a creek that you have to wade through to retrieve your arrow, at a skunk target, or a raccoon target. LOL talk about getting target panic, that will sure give it to you in a hurry. then you got the endless number of hills, dales, sticker bushes etc... one of the guys that shoots the "Pro" division at one of the tournaments i attend, put weight and balance to me this way, "When you release the arrow you want the bow to pause momentarily, then slowly rock forward, and that is a well balanced bow" Jere can tell you how accurate that is, or if it isn't that's how i set my bow up, and i haven't regretted it, i will advise using the smallest diameter pins you can find, makes hitting a small target at 30 and 40 a lot less of a guessing game. I shoot .10 diameter copper john pins, and they work well for me i'm currently looking for some .08 or smaller though. It does get expensive, finding the exact set up that works for you, but when you're standing on a target and you know the range , and that arrow smacks that 12 ring, there is no greater feeling in the world, one word of advice, practice the "Snake Shot" put some target about 5 feet infront of you, and start with a 40yd pin, and shoot until you find exactly where you can hit the target where you aim, the guys around here love to throw that one in to throw you off, might be different there though. My best idea is limit your weight, and bulk, that way stomping through brush is no big, here we shoot 26 targets (25 official one bonus) and an average walking distance to hit all targets gets close to 2 miles from time to time, i used to carry all kinds of stuff with me, now i take my bow, 4 arrows, my arrow puller(very handy, essential gear trust me) my rest, and that's it. Have fun bubba, it's a definate adventure, let us know how you score out there.
Semper Fi

#7 Jeremiah

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 06:12 PM

I know I've shared this info on here before, but I think it was back when you still couldn't get on the site. (Still no clue why you can't register "Jeremiah Johnson", by the way... It isn't already registered, nor is it blocked. :wacko: :hmm: Oh well.)

Anyway, George Ryals IV (alias "GRIV" on the Net) is a pro shooter. (Formerly Martin, now Hoyt... Also a Stanislawski/Copper John boy.) He happens to be one of a few people I would classify as an all out archery genius. You may want to check out the following article on his own website... Shot Stabilization. (I believe you have to register for an account there and log in to view the topic.) It explains, in detail, the mass bow weight to holding draw weight ratio I mentioned earlier as well as stabilization in general. Some of it may be more than you want to get into at this time. But, I think it explains things well.

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#8 Hatchet Jack

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Posted 24 January 2007 - 08:23 PM

Hey Terry - I'm with you on the 3d panic brother. I shot the hunter class all last year and got a real education on target distance - learned a bunch. I have a hip holster with all my stuff, but I think I'm switching to a folding seat. The Walmart variety folding seat with a large pocket for carrying stuff and a shoulder strap fitted with tubes for extra arrows was pretty popular at the IBO shoot in Bedford. I bought one and have tubes for it.

I also learned about using dark nocks and vanes to keep from providing the next shooter an aiming point.

I'm gonna go check out that site Jer - Thanks!
"The Lord bless and keep you. The Lord make His face shine upon you and be gracious to you. The Lord turn His face toward you and give you peace." Num 6:24-26




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