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#1 silvertip-co

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 06:07 PM

Hmmm I thought all M-16 operational issues were solved years ago. Seems NOT...

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We still continue to provide our military with pea shooters like the .223 and 9mm that dont work, dont kill the enemy, jam up, and cost American lives. It dont take a reeeal smart man to see they just need to go back to the M-14 and the 1911 45auto and get our men some REAL guns. ( sorry I am non-mil, lacking in experience, but am an angry American who knows his guns, machinery, and manufacturing processes). I am leery of any rifle with a 'forward bolt assist'( that means the darn gun dont, wont, cant, and has never worked properly). Gene Stoner didnt do anything for the world giving us the M-16, and my hat's off to Gen'l Kalashnikov who gave the world a real military rifle that shoots in sand, mud, grit, grime, grease, and under water.
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#2 silvertip-co

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 08:27 PM

...Case in point: At Saturdays Federal Prison riot in Florence CO ( which barely made the leftist liberal media) involving over 200 federal inmates- Guards fired over 500 .223 rounds (surely from M16's ) and managed to kill 2 inmates and wound 5 more. 7/500... I guess the M-16 performed as the govt expects it(not) to.
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#3 PA RIDGE RUNNER

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 01:53 PM

Having been in the military for many years and shot many rounds from at minimum M1 Carbine, M-16, and M60 $5 Auto and 38spcl revolvers. The m1 carbine was way too enemic to even be considered anti personnel. My personal opinion of the .223 has always been that it too was an enemic anti personnel cartridge. Just look and compare in any reloading manual this round with the classic old 222 Rem. Now I shoot the 222 and would not consider it for anything but target and varmint. Some folks will argue that you can shoot heavier bullets. No you can't unless the rate of twist of the rifling is changed to a faster rate of twist you will not be able to stabilize the heavier bullet and if you have the faster rate of twist then the lighter bullets will not stabilize. Now the m60 being a .308 and automatic will do the job. As the 45 auto also can be an effective handgun cartridge while the 38 spcl is just too weak. Having all my experience in the Air Force arm of the military, if you have to fight the enemy with small arms you are waay too close. Hit em with a bomber 8 countries away.

The only advantages I can think of for the m16 is every person has the capability of a fully automatic weapon and can carry more ammo than the 30-06 or 308. Of course if you encounter the enemy you will need both of those advantages just to make em want to quit.
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#4 runNgun

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 02:54 PM

I agree.. I can see where the .223 has an advantage in the amount of ammo a soldier can carry. I think redesigning the M16 to something a little bigger wouldn't be a bad idea. Neither would switching back to the .45 for handguns.
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#5 Larry $

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 04:43 PM

I think the newer version of the M-16 being issued to the troops, the M-4, is no longer fully auto. I'm not sure, but I think I saw somewhere where it will do 3 round bursts or single shot semi-auto. Too many guys holding the gun up over the sandbags and ripping off an entire magazine or something like that.

Also, it's pretty common in a combat situation (military or law enforcement) for a large number of shots to be fired with relatively few hits. Stress of combat, fear, adrenaline, etc. all contribute. I'm not sure it would be fair to blame the rifle for 7 hits out of 500 shots fired. I think a more accurate way to look at the prison situation would be 2 killed and 5 wounded out of 7 hits. The other 493 + or - shots fired missed their target for whatever reasons as opposed to hitting their target and not doing any damage.
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#6 PA RIDGE RUNNER

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 05:53 PM

Larry you may be right about the burst instead of full auto. I retired in 98 and this 3 round burst was nearing becoming official. What surprised me was how close 5 rounds would hit at 200 yds. If you had a good hold on the M-16 and fired off a 5 round magazine they would all hit a spot roughly the size of a paper plate. After 5 shots it would start to move slightly up and to the right. They never left us fire off a full clip on full auto just a 5 round clip. I never had a problem with accuracy from the M-16 but back in the days of college rioting I was the designated cover (read sniper) for our group. I was never permitted to claim a particular weapon though. I tried many times to get them to just designate a specific weapon for me or for that purpose otherwise the rifle that I got would not even be sighted in by me. I just thank God that I never had to be utilized in that particular role.

You are also right about the habit of just putting many rounds downrange. Most time in a combat situation if a person was shooting one shot at a time they figured he could actually see the enemy.
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#7 Spirithawk

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Posted 04 May 2008 - 06:50 PM

Being I was 340th Bomb Squadron, 97th Bomb Wing, I agree with Paul. B 52's are the way to go. Ever see or hear an Arc Light Strike?

#8 Leo

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 01:13 PM

From a battle logistics point of view the 223 Rem with full metal jacket ammo is a "wounding" round not a killing one. Although the 223Rem can certainly be fatal on human targets this is surprisingly not the ultimate goal of armed combat. One wounded soldier takes two unwounded soldiers to carry. Deceased soldiers are left until later. The idea behind the round is to take the most opponents "out of action" as possible. And those bearing wounded are effectively, "out of the fight".

The problem that enters into the equation is when we are facing forces that simply don't care about each other. Armed forces that don't care about their own wounded nullify this tactic. They depend on us to take care of their wounded for them. And we do!

Weapon and cartridge aside the only way you can claim a definitive victory over such an opponent is to be more brutal and heartless than they are.

When you are trying to prove a point that you aren't that way. You simply cannot and will not win. You simply fight on and on. As long as one side takes that attitude it is a practically endless battle.

This is sad, so very sad! :(

Why aren't we out of Iraq? Simple, we would not be forgiven for doing what it takes to win. :(
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#9 Joe

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 07:00 AM

Leo is right as we would not be forgiven for doing what it takes to win as many innocents no make that semi innocents would be killed or injuried as in Vietnam where villagers did not harm our men but allowed the Vietcong to hide among them. I do not blame our men for taking out full villages. I better shut up now before I go off. Later all.
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#10 Larry $

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 11:31 AM

I'm with you Joe.
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#11 young_hunter12

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 08:10 PM

i preferabliey like the m4 carbine i like the way it shoots and the way it feels i hate the m14 i drill with one and i hate the darn thing




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