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G5-Versus-Muzzy


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#1 RobertR

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 10:45 AM

I will stick with the tried and true Muzzy's after seeing what happens on the same type of impact. Both shots were from around the same yardage and a pass through from a tree stand. The G5 basically blew up and disintegrated and all though the Muzzy got bent on impact it held together. I don't begrudge the accuracy of the G5 or its effectiveness on cutting through bone but it's just not as tough compared to a muzzy broadhead to me.
Your thoughts as to why the G5 failed so badly.

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#2 Jeremiah

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 11:47 AM

This is my opinion only. That and $1.00 might buy you a cup of coffee. So, take it for what it's worth.

G5 Montecs are made using a process known as MIM (Metal Injection Molding). As the name implies, the metal starts out in powder form and then, in a process that resembles plastic injection molding, is literally molded into its final shape rather than having been forged, stamped or machined down, for example. The strong positive is that the broadhead is one solid piece with no intricate welds having been needed. MIM also allows for more design intricacy. (And the Montec showcases this for sure. They are sleek and sexy looking broadheads.) One of the negatives, however, is that if anything in the process is off you can potentially end up with small voids in the metal which leads to weakness. If not caught by quality control, that can lead to a whole batch of bad product making it to store shelves. (I remember some test Montecs that were sent out to certain shops when they were newer to the market that were practically crumbling just from being shot into a foam Block.) All told, your pictures don't shock me. But, I'd almost bet if you shot a dozen Montecs from different batches you may see 12 different results.

And now for a Muzzy Moment:
(Sorry, but I had to say it. :o) )
A lot of people dog Muzzy for using aluminum ferules, but I've never understood why. (I think the people who do have never actually observed the design closely.) This is because the blades themselves actually form a solid column of steel that runs down through the center of the aluminum ferule. You can see in your picture that the part that bent is the tip and a portion of the ferule started to peel back like a banana. But, the blades, their formed steel column included, are intact. I don't shoot Muzzy anymore, but you'll never convince me they aren't still one of the best/toughest broadheads on the market.

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#3 Leo

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 02:04 PM

I've used both heads with great success in the past. I've personally never had either head look like either head in the picture you've posted after shot through game.

The biggest difference I can tell you is I was using the 130grain Muzzies and the 100grain Montecs. These heavier heads are significantly stronger merely by virtue of having more material in them. When you get down to 85 and 90 grains the five grain difference is a 6% strength advantage for the 90grainer. The Montecs are also harder so when they are over stressed they will break and the muzzy will bend more before letting go. The difference here is what do you want out of the head. If the Montec doesn't break it can be resharpened and reused. If the Muzzy is bent you have to toss it. Frankly, I've been able to reuse more Montecs than Muzzies because the Muzzies do frequently get bent and become unusable.

Powdered metallurgy is actually a huge improvement over stamped blades. Don't take my word for it, go look it up. High quality blade steels and tool steels are manufactured with this method.

In either case it appears pretty apparent to me that for your setup a 100gr or heavier broadhead would offer you more of the strength you're looking for.
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#4 RobertR

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 03:53 PM

I should have told the whole story here as to why these broadheads failed. I do a lot of tree stand hunting and have had many close shots five yards or less and after a pass through and you stick an arrow in the ground on these river bottoms no broadhead will survive. The point is the muzzy will hold together although bent and the G5 will crumble in my experience. I'm not doubting the G5'S strength.
I do shoot 100 grains for the most part and the optimum grain for my set up would be 115 grains but I'm always experimenting. I can understand the reuse of any broadhead if it's a longer shot or from ground level where nothing hard can be hit after the pass through.
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#5 swamphntr

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Posted 11 October 2009 - 08:49 PM

I got to say, I have used both heads with predictable and excellent results. Both are tougher than most. Why I do not shoot g5's today is basically out of convenience. Plain and simple the g5s are a pain to keep sharp. The sharpening process is something I had to learn. 400 wet sand paper gets em shaving sharp. They fly great are tough as nails and I really cant say much bad about them. However, the muzzys I assemble and screw on and go to town. Out of the box, I dont think there is many other heads that can come close to the consistency of a muzzy.

#6 Rowdy Yates

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 07:26 AM

I'm not addressing how these got like they did. Just my Posted Image Posted Image

I have seen the Montec and other one piece broadheads(NAP hellrazor & Magnus snuffer) break but not as bad as the one in your photo Robert. I have also seen the Muzzy MX 4 & 3 break in the ferral and blades. I think any broadhead has it's limitation for how tough they are made. I expect damage being done to any broadhead especially after it exits the other side and impact a harder surface. I pactrice with broadheads a great deal and I believe they are all made to last just so long before they are useless for hunting.


Broadheads to me have to meet acouple of things, if they are accurate or can be tuned to fly good and are sharp out of the package or can be sharpened by a sharpener or by replacing the blades. The G5 Striker and the NEW Montec cs broadhead are just that for me. Muzzy are all that too. So to me it's what you have confidence in to be lethal with that first arrow.
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#7 Leo

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 08:24 AM

I got to say, I have used both heads with predictable and excellent results. Both are tougher than most. Why I do not shoot g5's today is basically out of convenience. Plain and simple the g5s are a pain to keep sharp. The sharpening process is something I had to learn. 400 wet sand paper gets em shaving sharp. They fly great are tough as nails and I really cant say much bad about them. However, the muzzys I assemble and screw on and go to town. Out of the box, I dont think there is many other heads that can come close to the consistency of a muzzy.


The 400grit wet dry sandpaper is as excellent tip! I do this too! I used to use a coarse and a fine diamond stone (still do in a pinch). I find the sandpaper method is easier and faster.

Glue the sandpaper to a piece of glass, plexiglass, bathroom tile, laminate flooring or anything hard and flat. Make sure the long edge of the paper lines up with the edge of what you glue it down too. If you use glass and 3M spray adhesive you can change out the paper easily enough. Spray it thoroughly with brake part cleaner and let it "eat" the glue for about 3 minutes. It will peel right off. You can clean the residual glue with brake cleaner and a clean rag (I use painters rags cut from white T-shirt material a box of them is cheap).

The sandpaper works good dry. I use a little butchers block oil (mineral oil) to clean out the steel residue that builds up in between heads. Wipe the excess oil off with a clean rag. In addition to cleaning the paper it also lubes it and helps it make a smoother polish.

Stamped broadhead blades can be resharpened on 1000grit (glued down) if they are not nicked up. Once stamped blades get nicked it is useless to try and save them. I hold the blades with a pair of hemostats (clamping type needle nose pliers). Hemostats are often sold as fish hook removing pliers. I find they are real useful for lots of stuff besides that.

I put the sandpaper I've glued to a flat piece on a wet towel (keeps it from sliding around) near the edge of a countertop (got to be near the edge to get the right blade angle). Put the blade at a 15degree angle and drag the blade in the direction opposite to what you would do to "shave" the paper. About 10 6inch strokes per side will do it. Maintaining the angle is crucial to results and it takes practice to get good at this.

You can get the wet dry paper at the autoparts store where they sell body painting and refinishing supplies.
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#8 Leo

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 09:53 AM

I should have told the whole story here as to why these broadheads failed. I do a lot of tree stand hunting and have had many close shots five yards or less and after a pass through and you stick an arrow in the ground on these river bottoms no broadhead will survive. The point is the muzzy will hold together although bent and the G5 will crumble in my experience. I'm not doubting the G5'S strength.
I do shoot 100 grains for the most part and the optimum grain for my set up would be 115 grains but I'm always experimenting. I can understand the reuse of any broadhead if it's a longer shot or from ground level where nothing hard can be hit after the pass through.


Well if you are hitting rocks, I agree no broadhead is gonna survive. They just aren't designed for that.

No doubt in my mind, the Montecs are at a huge disadvantage to the Muzzies when they hit rocks. The hardness of the Montec pretty much guarantees it will shatter versus bending when driven with enough force into something as hard or harder. But when shot into game this hardness and resistance to permanent bending is actually preferred. In my experience, a broadhead that takes a permanent bend as it penetrates game will do unpredictable things. Because of the hardness, the Montecs are either straight or obviously broken.

The aluminum ferrel on the Muzzies actually helps cushion the impact on the trocar tip. I have found you really have to check that ferrel out after a shot. Just a slight bend in it can drastically affect the accuracy of that head. Spin test each head to make sure they don't wobble. Even a slight wobble on just the trocar tip can be enough to affect the accuracy on these heads. In fact, I've found, it's a good idea to spin check Muzzies even when they are brand new. Sometimes you can simply take out the blade assembly turn it 90 degrees and reassemble a straighter head. Manufacturing tolerances can stack up differently, so sometimes it takes swapping blades and tips to get the best heads out of pack.
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#9 TerryfromAR

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 11:17 AM

Jere and Leo, wanted to get ya'lls metallurgical opinions on the broadheads I am shooting and see what ya'll thought about how durable they will be based on what the manufacturer gives as far as info:

"From the ultra-strong and light-weight, fully machined billet type 3S hard anodized 7075-T6 ferrule, to the proprietary curved edge .032 stainless steel blades that are hard, yet ductile to avoid breaking. The very special anodizing process yields a surface hardness of 65 R-C and is over 10 times thicker than regular anodizing."

This is the information from the Hypershock line by aftershock archery
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#10 Jeremiah

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 12:25 PM

Jere and Leo, wanted to get ya'lls metallurgical opinions on the broadheads I am shooting and see what ya'll thought about how durable they will be based on what the manufacturer gives as far as info:

"From the ultra-strong and light-weight, fully machined billet type 3S hard anodized 7075-T6 ferrule, to the proprietary curved edge .032" stainless steel blades that are hard, yet ductile to avoid breaking. The very special anodizing process yields a surface hardness of 65 R-C and is over 10 times thicker than regular anodizing."

This is the information from the Hypershock line by aftershock archery


High quality alloy there. (Expensive.) 7075-T6 aluminum is very common in aircrafts and a bunch of other applications. For T6 hardening, I think you're looking at an ultimate strength in the low to mid 500 MPa range. ASTM A36 structural steel is closer to 400, just to give you an idea of what we're dealing with here. Needless to say, it's lighter than steel too. Each has differing properties, obviously. The T6 is generally more brittle because it doesn't "give" the way steel does. But, I obviously have no problem with aircraft aluminum as a broadhead ferule material depending on the exact machining/design.

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#11 Leo

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 01:48 PM

Hardening DOES NOT! I repeat DOES NOT! strengthen metal. This is an extremely common misconception about hardening brought about by marketing folks who don't know any better. Yes hard is good because what it does do is raise the amount of stress required to cause permanent bending (deformation) of the metal. In essence what this means is harder metal of the same kind when subjected to the same stress will spring back to original form at a higher stress than the unhardened version of the same metal. Both hardened and unhardened versions will still in fact break at the same stress. Hardening also does not stiffen the material which is another common misconception. It will still bend the same amount, hardened as unhardened when subjected to the same stress. Again the difference is it takes more stress to permanently deform the hardened metal than the unhardened one.

The thing that really tells you how ultimately strong the alloy is, is it's spec. In this case 7075 aluminum is darn good stuff. Years ago Easton's flagship arrows were made of 7075 Aluminum. It's an excellent alloy. When hardened nicely it springs back to original under most archery stresses.

As far as the blades go, I honestly don't know. The term "stainless steel" is as general as the term water. In other words, some of it you can drink and some you can't. There are an uncountable number of alloys that qualify as stainless. Some are appropriate for blades and some are ridiculously inadequate. The initial sharpness of the blades is your best clue. It's difficult to get something sharper than factory fresh. The lesser stainless steels are incredibly difficult to get to razor sharpness. Most reputable manufacturers have figured out that cheap stainless steel isn't so cheap when it takes a significant amount of time to sharpen. Pretty much all mechanical broadheads are "one shot" wonders. So as long as the blades are razor sharp to begin with, in general you'll be fine.

The Montec G5's were at least, in the beginning, a big exception to the "out of box" sharpness rule. The first ones I got I absolutely could make sharper. They would work out of the box but they weren't as good as they good be. Supposedly G5 has addressed this sharpness issue on the Montecs. Personally, I don't know first hand because I can resharpen the ones I have just fine. Unless you lose it or plow it into a rock like Robert did in this thread, they just keep going and keep killing. They are a good broadhead as far as I'm concerned. The G5 Strikers I've handled and shot really are "get the bandaids sharp". The Strikers shoot as good as the Montecs as far as I can tell. I've just still got a lot of Montecs to use.
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#12 TerryfromAR

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 06:18 PM

Jere, Leo Thanks Ya'll.... I had an Idea that it was high quality aluminum for the ferrule but I wanted to make SURE they weren't just blowing smoke... I shot my Red Stag with these broadheads and the tip shattered the rib I hit... then I still got good penetration.... The stag broke my arrow(Gold Tip Hunter XT) as it passed a tree but when I cut open the chest cavity and saw my broadhead it was none the worse for wear..... other than the fact it was bloody, and gummed up with tissue I have no doubt that I could have changed the blades which I can get about $1 or less each ($5.and something for a pack of 6) and keep reusing the ferrule, unfortunately I lost that one.... I didn't think about resharpening them might see what the results are if I get a chance to use another... out of the package you do have to be really careful.... (I ended up with a blade tip stuck in the tip of my finger before I realized it)
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#13 Rowdy Yates

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Posted 13 October 2009 - 12:22 PM

The Montec G5's were at least, in the beginning, a big exception to the "out of box" sharpness rule. The first ones I got I absolutely could make sharper. They would work out of the box but they weren't as good as they good be. Supposedly G5 has addressed this sharpness issue on the Montecs.



Leo the new Montec CS, carbon steel, according to G5 Outdoors is 25% sharper. That to me was the hardest thing to understand about the original design was the sharpness and how to get them sharp. Bruce helped me when we were out hunting discussing these heads. I bought some on the new CS design on the cheap off eBay just to see how they compared and flew. They feel like they have an improved edge compared to the regular Montec just of the package. I shot two heads several times and they fly pretty darn close to my field points. The spin testing they do I feel makes a difference to how accurate your shooting is with very little tuning with these heads. After repeated shots into a Rhinehard 18+1 hard rubber target they still felt sharp. I sharpened it back up with just a few strokes on a Smith's flat diamond sharpener. These are very easy to sharpen compared to the original Montec.
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#14 mudduck

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 01:14 AM

Man, I always feel like the oddball here, but, I really could give a hoot whathappens to the broadhead after it leaves the deer. Shoot it once, and then toss em. No re-sharpening here. Cripes, if 4-5 bucks is gonna put ya in the poor house...... I'm way more concerned with how my broadhead gets to the target, and then what it does upon entering said target. If broadheads get to be too expensive, try taking up lawn darts instead.

#15 Chrud

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 06:23 AM

A few years ago I had planned on trying G5 Montec's. I did pick up a pack of the Preseason heads, but was disappointed in the flight and noise, so I didn't bother with trying the hunting heads.

The only broadhead I've hunted with is Muzzy. Only once have I had any kind of failure. The failure was on the first deer I killed with a bow. It was an original Muzzy 100 4-blade, and one of the blades bent and broke along the bottom.

I'm one of the few (according to some internet forums) that has actually gotten good flight from the MX line-up. I used MX-4's the last couple years with great success. This year I'm using the MX-3's and the jury is still out. I will say I'm highly disappointed in the quality of the broadheads. I purchased nine heads total (three packs of three). Of the nine, seven had aluminum burs and scrap still in the ferules. A few will not spin well on any of the arrows I have, and some blades won't even seat at the bottom of the ferule (I have to tighten the tip as much as possible and there is still a fairly significant gap at the bottom.

I've been a Muzzy user since 2002, but will likely be looking somewhere else in 2010.




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