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#1 TXRedneck

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Posted 08 November 2009 - 02:41 AM

Greetings,
Like the title says I am new to Muzzle loading and I have a ton questions I hope somebody can help me with. I currently bought me a TC Omega .50cal with the camo stock and weather shield. I went ahead and bought I believe is all the neccessary accessories i might need, Ball starter, needle pick, capping tool, etc... It is going to be about a month before I can actualy shoot my new gun because I am still over seas. So I am trying to learn everything I can before I get home so I don't mess up my new gun... I have researched and figured out about all the powders and bullets and I guess my first question is, can I shoot ball ammo out of the new inline muzzle loaders with a 1/28 twist barrel? when it comes to lubed patches what thickness should i use with the ball ammo? Can i shoot Hornady's PA conical bullets out of the 1/28 twist barrel and if so do I use a lubed patch?? what about Hornady's great plains bullets, do i need to use a lube patch with them? What about them 209 primers. I have noticed some of them are called 209A, 209N, 209.. can I use all of these in a 209 system? What about #11's can I use them? What is a good primer?
Ok i think I will stop there before I wear out my welcome..LOL thanks ahead of time for all the advice..

#2 TXRedneck

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Posted 08 November 2009 - 07:45 AM

Ok I did some research and i read where Round balls in a 1:28 twist inline is basically a no go unless you use a low powder charge... So i think I answered that question, So what about patch thickness etc.. how do you determine that and do you use them with the Hornady Great plain bullets, and PA Conicals..

Thanks

#3 McBruce

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Posted 08 November 2009 - 08:26 AM

TX:
Welcome to the forum. I can't answer your questions as this isn't my area of expertise, but rest assured there are folks here who will be able to answer all your questions and you won't wear out a welcome by asking. Enjoy the new in line and welcome to HR.
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#4 PA RIDGE RUNNER

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Posted 08 November 2009 - 03:36 PM

Welcome to you. Do not be fearful of asking questions and no question is a dumb one. I have been shooting a flintlock since the mid 70s. The type of bullet is very much contingent on the rate of twist in a given rifle. As a general rule and I say general as not all rifles will follow this. Your TC Omega is an inline as opposed to a sidelock percussion or a flintlock. Your rifle as you stated is a 1;28 twist. This rate of twist will stabilize a bullet in a sabot which is a plastic sleeve. You can also use bore size conicals such as the tc maxi ball and many other r.e.a.l. bullets. R.e.a.l. simply means rifling engaged at loading. You can drive the sabots much harder than any of the all lead real bullets as the latter when fired at high speeds tend to strip down the rifling rather than gripping it and accuracy isn't very good when that happens. The next most popular rate of twist is 1:48 which is what most sidelock and flintlock barrels are. This rate of twist will stabilize a patched round ball and most all of the real bullets. The 1:48 twist will not shoot the sabot very well as most all of those rifles will not handle heavy powder loads.

Now to your TC. Your Omega first of all is a very popular rifle. It will tolerate up to 150 grains of powder. CAUTION: If you use 777 loose powder the maximum load is 120 grains. The reason for that is 777 loose powder is about 15% stronger than any other powder. I am not an advocate of the 150 gr magnum loads anyhow as anything over 120 grains will not gain you very much in velocity but greatly increases the recoil. In my inline, a Knight Bighorn, I only use 80 grains of real black powder and a 300 grain Hornady xtp in a harvester crush rib sabot and get great results at the range and in the field.

One thing pecular about muzzleloaders is a powder/bullet combo that works well in one rifle may or may not be the best load in another rifle even the same make and model. You just have to spend some range time to find out what your rifle likes.

As to lubed patches, the only bullet that requires a lubed patch is the round ball so with any other bullet that is not recommended.

My best advice is to first read the manual very carefully. It should recommend a bullet/powder combo to get you started. Also if you know someone that shoots a muzzleloader try to get with them your first couple of times at the range. They can be the most help with the dos and donts of muzzleloading. Also check your states regulations to be sure you are legal with your choices as some states have some interesting rules.
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#5 cayugad

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Posted 08 November 2009 - 08:21 PM

Ok I did some research and i read where Round balls in a 1:28 twist inline is basically a no go unless you use a low powder charge... So i think I answered that question, So what about patch thickness etc.. how do you determine that and do you use them with the Hornady Great plain bullets, and PA Conicals..

Thanks




Welcome to the forum. It is great having you here. You ask any question you want. There is no dumb, silly or stupid question when iit comes to muzzle loaders.



The reason manufactures went to a 1:28 twist was because they discovered it stabilized saboted projectiles pushed at higher speeds. As you are probably aware, a projectile gains it stability from its relationship to the twist in the barrel. That's why smoothbore muskets, while they could shoot a large roundball, the ball never gained any spin and so it did not stabilize as well in the air. So they were not accurate at longer distances. The advancement of the rifle twist made the roundball much more stable in flight and so accruacy was gained.

Getting back to your rifle. Yes it can shoot roundball. But the twist of the rifle makes it very necessary for the powder charge not to me too hard or it will cause the patch to skip over the rifleing. If the ball and patch skips over the rifleing it will not get the proper spin to cause stabilization. Kind of back to the musket theory. No accuracy. If you slow them down, they can and will shoot a round ball very well. Stay around 50 grains of powder and you will be fine. But while a 50 grain powder charge and roundball will kill it is not what the rifle was intended to do.

Your rifle was designed to basically shoot a saboted projectile and some full bore conical bullets. You will not have to worry about patching a ball or a conical bullet as it is not necessary. Instead, with the rifle prepared, you dump your powder charge in pellet or loose powder form down the barrel. Take a bullet like a 250 grain Shockwave made by Hornady. Others are 200, 300 grain Shockwave bullets. Or some XTP bullets made by Hornady. Plus there are many others on the market that will shoot fine out of your rifle. Insert the bullet into the plastic sabot. Then using the sabot and the bullet as one unit, push that into the bore of the rifle. The short starter will set the sabot, and the ramrod will finish it, seating it firmly on the powder charge..

There are many different kinds of 209 primers on the market. Simple shotgun primers will work just fine. The reason there are different primers is they are different strength. Some of the weaker ones are the Remington Kleenbore Primers, Winchester Triple Seven primers, and some of the stronger are the CCI, and the Winchester W209 (I use these). Weaker primers are still hot enough to ignite powder or pellets. But the theory is, is the primer is weaker, it will not cause such a hard fouling build up in the bore. I find that true with some rifles, the Omega being one of them. Your rifle is a break open design, so it can not use a #11 cap. That is more for the traditional rifles and the open breech design rifles.

If you want to shoot a conical, there are Great Plains, FPB's which are like a Shockwave only full bore, Powerbelts, maxiball, etc.. Still I think your best accuracy will come with a saboted projectile in your rifle because of the rifling and depth of rifling.

Read your manual cover to cover and you will also learn a lot about your rifle. I suggest you start your FIRST range session with 100 grains of loose powder 2f grain size like Pyrodex RS and a 250 grain Shockwave. Any primer will work well. Swab the bore between shots and I think you will discover your rifle very accurate and deadly to some amazing ranges. Welcome to the forum and to the sport of muzzleloading.
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#6 TXRedneck

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Posted 11 November 2009 - 04:54 AM

Thanks for the info guys. Soon as I get home and get a chance to read the manual and shoot the gun I will post pics. I might have more questions then. Thanks for all your replies..

#7 PA RIDGE RUNNER

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Posted 11 November 2009 - 07:23 PM

Oh something I forgot. I had an oldtimer in muzzleloading tell me that I will not be a real muzzleloader till I have loaded the bullet without the powder and have shot my ramrod. I have not shot my ramrod....yet. Loading a bullet without the powder is easily remidied in an inline with a removable breech plug but try it in a sidelock or flintlock and it isn't so easy. Lol
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#8 TXRedneck

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 06:07 PM

I just wanted to give an update. I have been shooting my muzzle loader for the last week and I really like it. I can see how it can be addicting.. I have tried Hornady 240 Grain XTP with 100 grains and 150 grains.. I just don't think my gun likes them.. So I went to the TC Shock Wave sabots 250 grain with Spire point with 100 and 150 grain and I think my gun really likes them. So here lies my next question. Do you guys run a patch through your gun after every shot when sighting it in? IF so can you tell me the process for how you do it.. I have been shooting 5 to 6 shots before cleaning the gun. Could I get better accuracy if I ran a patch through it after every shot? When I clean it I Remove the breech plug, run the wire brush with some CVA Barrel Blaster wonder gel on it about 4 or 5 times. Then I run dry patches through it until it somewhat clean.. then I take my small wire brush and clean the breech area real good with the gel on it then I run patches back through it..... Now somebody told me before loading it and shooting again I should fire a primer through it to help dry it out.. Is this a good idea or should I just load it and shoot? Any Advice would help.

I am using 777 50 grain Magnum Pellets... and I am using 3 pellets.. I don't know how dirty other powders make the gun, but these pellets make my gun filthy. after 5 or 6 shots my barrel is Black!! it takes several patches to make it clean and i noticed there is a thick powder residue where the pellets ignite that take a lot of scrubbing to get out.. Is this normal? is there a better powder?

Sorry another edit and another question. I shot a doe the other day with my gun using a 100 grains and a TC 250 grain Shock wave with the spire tip. She was a 100 yards.. I found a meat splatter and no blood trail!!! Never seen anything like it.. just a meat splatter.. I couldnt tell which way she ran because of the smoke from the end of the barrel.. but i had a clue and I searched for 3 hours and never found her or a blood trail just little chunks of meat... Is this normal!!!! I mean i could have just grazed her brisket but i swear i got a good hit...

Thanks...

Edited by TXRedneck, 05 January 2010 - 07:13 PM.


#9 cayugad

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 09:16 PM

So I went to the TC Shock Wave sabots 250 grain with Spire point with 100 and 150 grain and I think my gun really likes them. So here lies my next question. Do you guys run a patch through your gun after every shot when sighting it in? IF so can you tell me the process for how you do it..




Lets say you shot your first shot. Now with a loading jag on the ramrod or range rod, spritz that patch DAMP but do not saturated it. You can use spit, Windex, 50/50 ispopropyl alcohol and car windshield washer fluid, pure alcohol, or any of the kitchen cleaners like 409, simple green, etc. Since your shooting Triple Seven pellets, simple water will work good, but I suggest the Windex. Windex as you know from cleaning windows, will dry fast when hit with a dry cloth.


Lay the wet patch over the end of the muzzle and push the ramrod head into it. Work that patch from the muzzle to the breech in short strokes. 2-3 inch strokes. This will keep the patch from getting stuck, and also scrub the fouling off the walls. Work all the way down to the breech and then back up. A lot of people will flip that patch and do it all over again. After you did the wet patch, now do the same thing with two dry patches. Your bore is now swabbed. Load it again. Doing this makes your shots more consistent. Consistency makes accuracy.


I am using 777 50 grain Magnum Pellets... and I am using 3 pellets..

That is technically an unsafe load. Three triple seven MAGNUM pellet is like shooting 180 grains of powder. Your rifle was meant for 150 grains max loads. Two of the MAGNUM pellets would be plenty and that is what they were made for. It must kind of beat you up. Personally I would get some loose powder, and a volume powder measure. Its cheaper to shoot. But in the mean time, just load two of them.



Your deer sounds like you hit the brisket. If you were finding meat instead of blood, did the meat have fat in it? It is did, sounds like a brisket shot. Shockwaves are sometimes hated because if you push that bullet hard, and the shot is close, it does not give the bullet time to open up. Then pencil hole you. You could try a Barnes or a Nosler bullet instead. Personally if you placed that Shockwave right, it should have done the deed.
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#10 PA RIDGE RUNNER

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 09:25 PM

Welcome back. I figure that each person has a routine when they shoot at the range. My thinking is my first shot at game will be from a clean barrel so I swab after eash shot. I do not remove my breech plug I just swab the barrel with an alcohol soaked patch and run two dry ones after that. Infact my entire routine is before the first shot is even loaded I swab out the barrel to remove the oil I use to store the rifle. I then load powder and bullet and shoot the first shot. I then swab as mentioned before and let the rifle stand and go check the target. I return and reload the rifle and shoot again. I swab again and let it sit and check the target. I do this because that is the way I have my rifle sighted in. I use alcohol but others use a mixture of windex and water and some just use spit. I like alcohol because it seems to clean pretty well and dries very quickly plus even if there is a trace left in there it is flammable.

You have encountered the dreaded crud ring in your barrel. It seems that 777 is noted for doing this. Some folks have found using a different primer helps with this. You might try some Pyrodex but you have to thoroughly clean your rifle as soon as possible as all powders leave a barrel corrosive residue and pyrodex seems to be worst. Changing to loose powder could help with the crud ring.

I am not real familiar with the 777 magnum but thought I recalled an advertisement that said to only use two of them and that is a max load but I could be wrong.

As for a muzzleloader hitting a deer it is the same as for a modern firearm. I have killed a whole bunch of deer with an inline, a sidelock percussion and even more with a flintlock and a heart or lung hit deer bleeds just as hard as when using my 7mm mag or 270. Usually a brisket hit will leave a bunch of hair too.
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#11 Phil

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 06:13 AM

I'm shooting a 50 cal. TC Omega as well. I tried several different loads & bullet weights....then listened to Cayugad & Paul. I started with 65 grs. of loose Pyrodex and 250 gr Hornady XTP until I was getting an excellent 3 shot group. I then started increasing my powder load by 5 grs until the shot grouping started going away(80 grs. Pyrodex gave the best results with the 250 gr. bullet). I switched to a 300 gr. Hornady XTP and 85 grs. of Pyrodex. I can't believe the game stopping power of this combination on deer. The first deer was a 60 yd broadside shot and she went about 40 yds leaving an unbelievable bloodtrail. The second deer made it all of 10 yds before piling up. Both shots were complete pass throughs. If your experimenting you might wish to give this load a try. I believe that 85 grs. of loose pyrodex should be almost the same as 100 grs. in pellets...( but the experts here can confirm or deny that Posted Image ). Best of hunting to ya.
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#12 TXRedneck

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 06:27 AM



Lets say you shot your first shot. Now with a loading jag on the ramrod or range rod, spritz that patch DAMP but do not saturated it. You can use spit, Windex, 50/50 ispopropyl alcohol and car windshield washer fluid, pure alcohol, or any of the kitchen cleaners like 409, simple green, etc. Since your shooting Triple Seven pellets, simple water will work good, but I suggest the Windex. Windex as you know from cleaning windows, will dry fast when hit with a dry cloth.

Lay the wet patch over the end of the muzzle and push the ramrod head into it. Work that patch from the muzzle to the breech in short strokes. 2-3 inch strokes. This will keep the patch from getting stuck, and also scrub the fouling off the walls. Work all the way down to the breech and then back up. A lot of people will flip that patch and do it all over again. After you did the wet patch, now do the same thing with two dry patches. Your bore is now swabbed. Load it again. Doing this makes your shots more consistent. Consistency makes accuracy.

That is technically an unsafe load. Three triple seven MAGNUM pellet is like shooting 180 grains of powder. Your rifle was meant for 150 grains max loads. Two of the MAGNUM pellets would be plenty and that is what they were made for. It must kind of beat you up. Personally I would get some loose powder, and a volume powder measure. Its cheaper to shoot. But in the mean time, just load two of them.

Your deer sounds like you hit the brisket. If you were finding meat instead of blood, did the meat have fat in it? It is did, sounds like a brisket shot. Shockwaves are sometimes hated because if you push that bullet hard, and the shot is close, it does not give the bullet time to open up. Then pencil hole you. You could try a Barnes or a Nosler bullet instead. Personally if you placed that Shockwave right, it should have done the deed.


You are absolutely correct on that load beating me up.. I shot my gun about 20x yesterday sighting in my scope and just trying to find the best load for it, and my Shoulder is "Tender" shall we say this morning. 3 of them pellets has a heck of a kick but they give excellent accuracy with the TC shock wave. I ended up putting about 7 shots in a grouping you could cover with a snuff can from a hundred yards. I will be going to 2 pellets after talking to you guys for safety and the sake of my shoulder LOL...

I am going to forgo hunting today even tho my time is limited and this is the last day of decent weather for the rest of week, but I am going to make a trip and go Powder and Sabot shopping. Then come back and give it a thorough cleaning then go sight it in and get it ready for hunting..

Thanks for the advice I thought I had to remove the breech plug every time in between shots. When I go shopping today I will pick up some more cleaning supplies..

I swear I got a good hit on that deer. I could have just grazed her and she just ran off.To answer your question there was no fat in the meat chunks that I could see. I was asking because I had read on here some people saying how they get no blood trails..

Edited by TXRedneck, 06 January 2010 - 06:52 AM.


#13 PA RIDGE RUNNER

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 09:48 AM

It is entirely possible to drive a muzzleloader bullet too hard causing it to break up on contact and not cause a fatal wound. Those big heavy magnum loads will educamate the shooter real fast. You know you have too much powder when you have to push your eyeballs back into place after the shot. Seriously I have killed deer with much less powder than you are using. For instance I shot a doe at well over 80 long steps with a sidelock percussion shooting only 60 grains of 2f black powder and got a complete pass through. I have killed many deer with a flintlock and an inline using only 75 to 90 grains of powder. Two deer that i killed with an 80 grain load and a 300 grain Hornady XTP were hit at the front end and the bullet traveled all the way to the rear of the deer. The first one was an 18 yd shot and the bullet entered just behind the front leg and exited in front of the rear leg and lodged in the lower rear leg. The other deer was just this fall and was a frontal shot at about 40 yds with the same load and the bullet entered at the base of the neck and traveled well over 30 inches and I found it just under the skin half way back the rear leg. Both of these bullets had a perfect mushroom to them and the mushroom measured over .66 from 45 cal. Both bullets weighed over 295 grains indicating virtually no loss of weight. As you can tell I am not an advocate of those big magnum loads Infact my accuracy begins to drop off signifficantly after 90 grains and goes worse at 100 grains.
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#14 TXRedneck

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 06:06 PM

It is entirely possible to drive a muzzleloader bullet too hard causing it to break up on contact and not cause a fatal wound. Those big heavy magnum loads will educamate the shooter real fast. You know you have too much powder when you have to push your eyeballs back into place after the shot. Seriously I have killed deer with much less powder than you are using. For instance I shot a doe at well over 80 long steps with a sidelock percussion shooting only 60 grains of 2f black powder and got a complete pass through. I have killed many deer with a flintlock and an inline using only 75 to 90 grains of powder. Two deer that i killed with an 80 grain load and a 300 grain Hornady XTP were hit at the front end and the bullet traveled all the way to the rear of the deer. The first one was an 18 yd shot and the bullet entered just behind the front leg and exited in front of the rear leg and lodged in the lower rear leg. The other deer was just this fall and was a frontal shot at about 40 yds with the same load and the bullet entered at the base of the neck and traveled well over 30 inches and I found it just under the skin half way back the rear leg. Both of these bullets had a perfect mushroom to them and the mushroom measured over .66 from 45 cal. Both bullets weighed over 295 grains indicating virtually no loss of weight. As you can tell I am not an advocate of those big magnum loads Infact my accuracy begins to drop off signifficantly after 90 grains and goes worse at 100 grains.


I was in luck I found some more powder today but no shock wave bullets. All I can find is them CVA and my gun absolutely hates them. So it looks like I am fixing to order some.. But reading your comments I have a question. If them Magnum pellets are that much hotter would one pellet with lets say a 200 grain bullet be effective?

#15 Spirithawk

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 07:03 PM

I was in luck I found some more powder today but no shock wave bullets. All I can find is them CVA and my gun absolutely hates them. So it looks like I am fixing to order some.. But reading your comments I have a question. If them Magnum pellets are that much hotter would one pellet with lets say a 200 grain bullet be effective?



One 50 gr pellet seems pretty weak to me. If you use pellets I'd stick to 2 pellets equalling 100 gr. Trust me, you'll get good accuracy, won't push the bullet too fast, except maybe with Power Belts, and the kick will be minimal. With Power Belts I think it depends on the individual rifle. We've all heard good and bad about them. My son loves them but I much prefer the T/C Shockwaves. He has a CVA Optima Elite and I an Optima Pro. One thing I like about the Shockwaves is that once seated I know it will stay put till fired. In many rifles the Powerbelts fit pretty loose and that just makes me nervous to say the least. I know Paul, PA Ridgerunner, feels the same about them. You have an excellent rifle and I hope it brings you many an enjoyable and successful hunt.




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