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#1 sschneid73

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 06:10 PM

Well we had a recent incident here in Nebraska the other day involving an ex security gaurd who happened to be carring a concealed 40 cal hand gun. He was a customer in a Walgreens when 2 young black men walked in and held a shot gun to the clerk and demanded money. This guy pulled his gun out and shot and killed the 18 yr. old holding the shot gun and the other one fled but was caught along with a 16 yr. old driver of the get away car. It was later told that there was no ammo in the shot gun and that the guy who shot the young man did not have a concealed carry permit. Well he was givin a ticket for the no permit but it was later dropped and no other charges were filed. This guy unloaded his 8 shot clip into this guy with 4 shots to the center mass killing him on the spot. Very unfortunate but I applaud the gentlemen for his quick action and focus on taking the guy out. He has been in the public spotlight the last few days and he is very distrought over the whole ordeal taking a life. Me having a concealed permit often wonder what I would do in a situation like that. I do carry most of the time and am more aware of my surrondings doing so. I also pray every day that the LORD would give me the ability to handle my self in a situation if it would arise. What do you guys think?

Steve

Edited by sschneid73, 09 May 2010 - 06:11 PM.


#2 Phil

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 06:36 PM

I often wonder myself Steve. People should complete a firearms self defense course before getting a concealed carry permit as they will gain useful insight & instruction on how to react in such a situation. This guy more than likely saved the lives of others(if not at that moment then in future robbery attempts by these young thugs) so hopefully he'll come to rest with his heroic actions.
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#3 Spirithawk

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 09:08 PM

I grew up in the roughest part of St. Louis, Mo. and have came home in time to catch a guy climbing in my infant son's bed room window. I've had a shotgun muzzle jammed under my chin and a .38 pressed to the back of my head in robberies. Also many attempts at strong arm robberies and a few knives pulled on me too. The one thing you must realise is that, even if you cooperate in every way, the lowlife may still shoot you anyways and often they do. I was lucky but I know several who were not. When I took the course to quallify for my CCW a guy spoke up saying he was a Christian and didn't know if he could shoot someone or not. I spoke up and told him he had no buiseness taking the course untill he was sure that he could shoot if the situation arose. I'm reminded of the words, " God helps them that help themselves. " You must fully understand that anyone pulling a weapon on you, or anyone else, will most likely not hesitate to use it. If you take the time to debate what your concience will allow you to do you very likely will have the question settled for you permanantly! You'll end up very dead! To me it's simple, I value my life, the lives of those I love, and the lives of the inocent far more than that of any scumbag that would think nothing of taking a life to most likely feed a drug habit! If one of us is going to die I intend to do my best to see to it that it's him! The man who shot the shotgun wielding thug should not dwell on the life he was forced to take but instead he should think of the lives he's probably saved by doing so. Yes, maybe the thugs gun was unloaded but he had no way of knowing that, and if the thug had gotten away he'd most likely rob again and the next time it might be loaded and he might have used it.

Edited by Spirithawk, 09 May 2010 - 09:14 PM.


#4 timothy

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 09:20 PM

I often wonder myself Steve. People should complete a firearms self defense course before getting a concealed carry permit as they will gain useful insight & instruction on how to react in such a situation. This guy more than likely saved the lives of others(if not at that moment then in future robbery attempts by these young thugs) so hopefully he'll come to rest with his heroic actions.




phil i strongly disagree with you, used too i would have but someone brought this point up to me before. For one more restrictive gun laws are somthing we do not need at all. Before we know it we will all have to spend a arm and a leg in time and money just to be able to carry a weapon to defend ourselves. dont take this question negativly but would you seriously tell your wife that she can not carry a concealed weapon unless she takes all these courses? i shoot my weapons every weekend and alot during the week, i have the luxury of being able to do this but some people do not, so a course like that would prove unefective for that person since they could not train with their weapon on a routine basis. Since they do not have that luxury should we tell them no you can not carry a weapon to protect yourself or your family? That is just my opinion while it would be a good thing to complete such a course, not taking it is definatly not a good reason to denie them the privledge. This man is a perfect example not having a CCP, he did not need such a course to be able to direct lethal force to a shotgun wielding gangsta, and not shoot the place up like a crazy person. Thats my 2 cents.
the original poster asked a question about being able to handle ourselves in the same situation, I hope i would be able to make that decision as well, i have been in the military and deployed to iraq twice. i was not pounding the streets but i was providing cover from a uh-60 as we transported and dropped troops off into battle. I hope my training will continue to serve me if i ever need to use it again. Im glad this man did what he did, that is 3 homicidal potential idiots off the streets.

#5 Phil

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 05:15 AM

phil i strongly disagree with you, used too i would have but someone brought this point up to me before. For one more restrictive gun laws are somthing we do not need at all. Before we know it we will all have to spend a arm and a leg in time and money just to be able to carry a weapon to defend ourselves. dont take this question negativly but would you seriously tell your wife that she can not carry a concealed weapon unless she takes all these courses? i shoot my weapons every weekend and alot during the week, i have the luxury of being able to do this but some people do not, so a course like that would prove unefective for that person since they could not train with their weapon on a routine basis. Since they do not have that luxury should we tell them no you can not carry a weapon to protect yourself or your family? That is just my opinion while it would be a good thing to complete such a course, not taking it is definatly not a good reason to denie them the privledge. This man is a perfect example not having a CCP, he did not need such a course to be able to direct lethal force to a shotgun wielding gangsta, and not shoot the place up like a crazy person. Thats my 2 cents.
the original poster asked a question about being able to handle ourselves in the same situation, I hope i would be able to make that decision as well, i have been in the military and deployed to iraq twice. i was not pounding the streets but i was providing cover from a uh-60 as we transported and dropped troops off into battle. I hope my training will continue to serve me if i ever need to use it again. Im glad this man did what he did, that is 3 homicidal potential idiots off the streets.



Yes Timothy, I would make my wife take a firearm self defense course before getting a CCW. Not for any "New Law" requirement but for her own safety & for her to experience some type of simulated "incident" so she would at least have a better chance of reacting as necessary to survive. In school we were regularly subjected to fire drills so that in case of such an emergency we would know what to do to exit the school safely. In the military you had training every single day to prepare you for different situations. So yes....I believe most of the people here on this board probably are capable of handling handguns,etc. in self defense but most folks wouldn't because they've never spent time training. JMOPosted Image
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#6 Spirithawk

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 10:37 AM

I totallly agree with you Phil. When you're being assaulted is not the time to learn how your weapon works, nor to try to decide what you are going to do or to stand there undecided on anything. The person assaulting you will not hesitate to do you serious harm to get what they want. Now adays they'll shoot you just to keep from leaving a witness. It's a proven fact that your best chance of surviving is to react fast and decisively. The key to that is having practiced variouse scenarios both in drill and running them over and over through your head so that instict takes over without hesitation. Getting your wife a CCW, without at least a minimal amount of training as to what to do should she need use it, would be like asking her to step into a boxing ring with a pro without her ever having fought nor even having the basic knowledge of rules and tactics. It would be like sending a lamb to slaughter.

#7 mudduck

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 02:55 PM

I think the EX security guard should be arrested and charged with murder. In some courts, carrying a concealed weapon already proves intent to use. My permit entittles me to protect me and my own. It is not a vigilante license. Most states have certain criteria that must be met before deadly force can be justified. I did not get my permit to be a hero,or to keep unwitting strangers safe. in the story given, I would draw my weapon, and retreat to the farthest portion of the store possible. I would not insert myself into the unfolding drama. I would be the very best witness I could be, giving accurate desriptions of the perps to the POLICE, whom I would be calling as I backed away. You pull the trigger, and you darn well better be prepared to accept the liability and other consequences of your actions.



#8 Spirithawk

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 04:47 PM

Jeff is right in that you can use no more force than necesary to stop a threat. But as I said, and I know this from exsperience not some theory in a book, that even if you fully cooperate you are likely to be killed anyway. Yes, if you shoot a theif, mugger, strung out druggy with a weapon, ect, ect, ect you have to worry about legal issues but only because unfortunately crooks have more rights than victims! But if I saw someone being robbed and I turned away, with maybe a call to the police at best, and then watched as the crook shoots the victom or victoms I could never live with myself when I had it in my power to save them but instead turned away because I was worried about myself. I would like to think that if a loved one were being robbed, or worse, that a bystander would at least do everything in their power to help. There is a huge differance in stepping in to help a victom, because you happen to be there, and going out looking for trouble intentionaly. I'm reminded of a couple stories that have been on the news lately. In one a man was hit by a car and in the other a woman was assaulted and raped. Both were in plain sight of an awful lot of people but in both cases not one person stepped forward to help! There's been several cases like that recently and in most the victoms died as the bystanders watched! If it were one of my loved ones that happened to, I'll tell you straight up, the bystanders would have little to worry about concerning legal issues. They'd best be worried about me! In saying the Security Guard should be arrested for murder you are basically saying the crook had the right to walk into the place with a shotgun, terrorise everyone in there, and walk out with the owners hard earned money. At most the guard should be charged with carrying concealed because that was his only crime. So what if the shotgun turned out to be unloaded. The guy carrying it gave everyone the indication that it was loaded! That doesn't make him inoccent but instead makes him terminaly stupid! As far as calling the cops the phrase, " When your living or dying depends on the next few seconds...the cops are minutes away! " says it all.

Edited by Spirithawk, 10 May 2010 - 05:00 PM.


#9 bonecollector34

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 05:03 PM

A step in the right direction, if those idiots start thinking they may get killed doing robberies then they will move to easier crime like selling dope

His not having a CCW permit will open the door to liability in the civil side of this goat rope but if the right decision was to arrest him and charge with manslaughter or homicide it would have been done according to State statute and it was not, so there is your answer.

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#10 PA RIDGE RUNNER

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 06:17 PM

My take is if you are going to carry for protection then do it legally with a permit. In this particular case the fact that the shotgun was unloaded is irrelevent and immaterial. Had the person been a police officer he would have been shooting too. As for whether you should or should not be trained I would go with as much training and practice as possible. Anyone that went to basic military training has heard when under a very stressful environment you revert to your basic training. We have all heard that practice makes perfect but I say that perfect practice makes perfect. There are those that say "I can't afford a course of training to which my reply is what is the value of your life, the lives of your family or the lives of those around you. I have a carry permit but do not usually carry concealed. When I do as Spirithawk said my senses are a bit sharper and I am constantly updating my SA (situational awareness) a very little like being on a battlefield.
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#11 timothy

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 06:39 PM

Ok you guys are misunderstanding the whole point, learning how to defend yourself with your weapon is a very good idea and i highly reccomend it. BUT defending yourself is a god given right, tougher firearms are NOT the answer. The constitution says nothing about taking a self defense course in order to carry a weapon. Give a liberal a inch and they will take a mile and that is a fact. As far as the securty guard going down for murder, while carrying a cW does not give you the right to be a hero, it does make you at least morally responsible for protecting the innocents around you. That is MY opinion and consequences be damned a crazy comes running into a store im shopping with a shotgun im gunna unload on him too. It has nothing to do with anything except for the fact that i could not live with myself knowing that a innocent life was lost because i failed to act. spirithawk your bit about having her step into the ring with a pro, is far from right. in fact i would go as far as say that in the majority of cases a person just understanding how to point and pull is all they would need to know. And my point is proven from the case in hand, this idiot had a empty shotgun, im sorry but surprise point pull trumps empty shotgun wielded by a person most likly affected by drugs.so yes i can agree its a better idea to learn how to proficiently shoot your weapon, but giving the gov. more control of your god given rights is a outrage.

#12 mudduck

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 06:58 PM

My mistake. I was talking about self-defense but this topic is more about an individual providing armed security to the masses. Lock n Load, happy huntinPosted Image

#13 timothy

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 07:13 PM

Hey i understand your point, and like i said irs my opinion. If you feel self preservation will be accomplished by you removing yourself from the danger then do it. But if i was at work and a idiot pulls a gun waves it at customers then points it at me and i was unable to defend myself i would hope someone else would help me out.

#14 Spirithawk

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 08:15 PM

Hey, I think each of us brings valid points to the table, but were it always cut and dried we wouldn't need to look for solutions. Each situation brings it's own factors into play. My point about stepping in with a pro is simply this. Most hoodlums that rob or attack you have already done so with others. They may not always be a bright bunch but they do have exsperience that has taught them their chosen trade. They go in knowing what they plan to do and how to go about doing it. The average housewife is not use to being attacked whether savagely or otherwise. The initial exsperience is a shock. Yes, one of the most dangerous shots is someone not familiar with shooting because they just point and shoot center mass. Buttt, it's been proven that most women, and men too, carry their firearm in a manner that makes it almost impossible to get into action fast when needed. Most women carry a handgun loose in their purse and have to fish for it. Now you take a woman with a minimal amount of training who has her firearm readily handy and knows how to draw, aim and fire under stress and which woman do you exspect to survive the encounter? And yes I do believe that anyone who even owns a firearm of any kind has the responsibility to know how to handle it safely. We shouldn't need the government to tell us that it's just common sense but it's amazing how many people lack that sense. When I got my CCW there was a woman there who had never even held a gun, let alone fired one. Her boyfriend was taking the course with her and had bought her a Glock .40. She did not know how to load it, did not know how to do anything with it, and had to be repeatedly told to watch where she was pointing it. That the kind of woman you want running around with a loaded semi auto? Just two hours of instruction and it was a whole another story. She was quite aware of handling the weapon safely, knew how it functioned, and knew what to exspect when she pulled the trigger. If the course hadn't been required her boyfriend would have simply armed her and turned her loose! And Jeff, in my opinion the guard did act in self defense. Had the shotgun been loaded and the jerk started shooting, then the guards life could end as easily as the other peoples. His life was threatoned the instant the punk stepped inside and pulled the shotgun. If anyone thinks he should have waited untill the hood started shooting, thus justifying his own action, anser me this. What, if for whatever reason the hoodlum started shooting, he aimed the first shot at the guard? I'll tell you what, shotgun at close range versus handgun equals one dead x guard. I've had guns pressed to my head and each situation had it's own set of factors that could have ended in disaster had I not handled each in a way that was needed right then and there. A case in point, I worked at a service station. I was robbed by several black guys all armed. I kept my cool, did what I was told and kept those I worked with calm. The guys got their money and left. End of story right? Nope, two weeks later they came back. Another guy was working and I was off. The guy cooperated, did as told, gave them the money and promptly died from a shotgun blast to the face. No reason to have shot him. Maybe they were high, who knows? What that tells me though is to be prepared to fight and take them out before they can me. Missouri law states that deadly force is warrented the instant you have legitamint reason to fear for your life. Someone pulls a weapon on me,or in my presence and points it at anyone without a justifiable reason, then I'd say that I'm reasonable to have that fear, and I will iliminate the threat as quickly and thoroughly as I possibly can! Now that's how I see things. We each have a right to see differantly. I base my opinions on personal exsperience, not stats nor theory. By our willingness to discuss the matter, politely and respectively with each other, we all learn and to me, that's a good thing.

Edited by Spirithawk, 11 May 2010 - 02:15 PM.


#15 timothy

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 08:53 PM

Now your talking a different aspect though, gun safety is way different than a firearms defense course. unfortunatly not everyone has enough common sense to refrain from buying their girlfriend who has never even held a gun, a semi automatic handgun. Not everyone will have the common sense to take their weapon to the range and learn how it fires, and become proficient with it. But that does not mean that we need the government to impose more restrictions on personal defense. and it does not mean that they do not have the right to carry a weapon. The system is not perfect but further restrictions will only affect the rest of us.






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